I belong to website called “Vampirefreaks.com” It’s a forum website, and I belong to many of the forums on different topics. I am a member of a Wiccan forum, a corset forum, a survivalist forum, and an atheist forum. I’m also staff in most of them. The topics inside the forums are often circular, but eventually we get things that either make us laugh, or we get very annoyed. The later happened in my Wicca forum. I thought I’d share. (I’m AmarisGrey, by the way.)
BloodyKittens:
but I’ve never thought of an athetist wiccan
AmarisGrey:
Wiccans can’t be atheists, dear.
JonothanLowe:
Actually, there’s no law stating a Wiccan *has* to believe in a deity.I’ve met a woman who practiced the wiccan ways of life, however she was Jewish. As a matter of fact, she’s one of the most powerful psychics i’ve ever had the pleasure of meeting. Just because she’s Jewish doesn’t mean she’s not Wiccan. She practices the wiccan ways of life more closely than most spiritually devout wiccans that I know. She’s just as much Wiccan inside as I am, she just worships the “one true god”…though as far as practicing her craft, she follows the teachings of Bast.
I know it’s a bit confusing, however people like her exist. Society doesn’t know how to grasp the concept of believing in different parts of religions, because not all religions are actually religious. Wicca for example does practice (depending on your path) worshipping other Gods and Goddesses….however you don’t necessarily have to have that part of Wicca in order to be Wiccan. There’s also the lifestyle teachings and laws….”An ye harm none do what ye will”, being close to nature, loving everyone and everything even if at times not everyone deserves it. Believeing in the good in people despite how many times you may have been hurt by others…believing that nobody is ever born inherantly evil
AmarisGrey:
“Actually, there’s no law stating a Wiccan *has* to believe in a deity.“
Yes, there is. In most books about the founding and practice of Wicca, including the one written by the father of Wicca, Gerald Gardner (The Gardnerian Book of Shadows), it states very clearly that the mother Goddess and father God must be acknowledged to some extent as a part of the religion. This belief, as well as the “harm none” guideline and the three-fold-law, is really the core of Wicca; the basic essence of the religion. Wicca is a duotheistic and/or pantheistic religion. There is no such thing as atheistic Wicca.
“I’ve met a woman who practiced the wiccan ways of life, however she was Jewish. As a matter of fact, she’s one of the most powerful psychics i’ve ever had the pleasure of meeting.“
If the woman you met was Jewish, that would mean that she followed the one Jewish god, observed Jewish holy days, and went to temple for celebrations. If she recognized a female deity in addition to her one God (namely Bast) or observed the Wiccan holidays, then she is not Jewish. You can’t be Jewish if you believe in more than one God; there is no exception to this rule. The Torah is pretty firm about that. She may hold some pagan philosophies, but it still doesn’t change the fact that she is Jewish. Also, the fact that she was psychic means exactly that and nothing more. Every religion has people that are psychics or “prophets”, including Judiasm and Christianity. Being psychic doesn’t automatically make a person a Wiccan.
“Just because she’s Jewish doesn’t mean she’s not Wiccan. She practices the wiccan ways of life more closely than most spiritually devout wiccans that I know. She’s just as much Wiccan inside as I am, she just worships the “one true god”…though as far as practicing her craft, she follows the teachings of Bast.“
These things are pretty clear cut. There can be Jews or Christians that practice magic, but that ultimately means that they are Jewish witches or Christian witches. You can’t superimpose two religions over each other. There are only two laws in Wicca that must be followed by every Wiccan: harm none, and honor the Goddess and God. If you don’t follow these two guidelines, you are not Wiccan. Pure and simple. A person of the Jewish faith that practices magic is a Jewish witch, not a Jewish Wiccan.
“I know it’s a bit confusing, however people like her exist. Society doesn’t know how to grasp the concept of believing in different parts of religions, because not all religions are actually religious.“
Taking things from different religions and mashing them together doesn’t make it a religion, nor does it even remotely relate to the several religions you pulled from in order to create these collection of beliefs. It becomes a new belief system, completely seperate from the ones from which you took.
“Wicca for example does practice (depending on your path) worshipping other Gods and Goddesses….however you don’t necessarily have to have that part of Wicca in order to be Wiccan. There’s also the lifestyle teachings and laws….”An ye harm none do what ye will”, being close to nature, loving everyone and everything even if at times not everyone deserves it. Believeing in the good in people despite how many times you may have been hurt by others…believing that nobody is ever born inherantly evil“
It’s true that Wiccans can believe in many Gods or Goddesses, but they either believe that the deities are all facets of the two deities, or they worship their own patron deity in addition to the Mother Goddess and Father God. But there are alway at least two deities involved.
I do want to make the fact clear that I’m not a militant atheist. I don’t look down on people that believe in gods or are religious. People should be allowed to worship who or what they want and believe whatever comforts them most as long as it’s not hurting anyone. But you can’t pick and choose what you want to believe and give it a label that is both incorrect or nonaplicable. If you are actively studying and following bits and pieces of several religions at once and put them into action, it ultimately means that, while you may be happy with the combination of aspects of different religious practices, you really don’t belong to any of them, and can’t claim that you do.
BloodyKittens:
I don’t think not practicing a religion the same way as the majority means you can’t proclaim yourself as apart of it.
AmarisGrey:
Yeah, it kinda does, dear. Religions have very clear cut rules that have to be followed in order to claim that as your personal religion. Saying that you are an atheist Wiccan is the same as claiming you’re a Christian that doesn’t believe in the existance of Jesus Christ. There is no such thing. Rules and outlines exist in religions in order to define the religion and the beliefs thereof. If what you believe falls outside of these lines, then you do not belong to that religion. It’s just that simple. You can’t take pieces of two religions, mash them together, and call it a mixture of both, because what you’ve created no longer resembles either faith. It’s a completely new belief system, unlike anything in the previous two religions you picked from.
I think the conclusion people get from this arguement is that you can’t believe everything you want to believe; that’s not true and not what I’m saying. You can believe in the “One true God”, dress in traditional Quaker garb, follow the Wiccan Holy days, and practice magic. But you can’t give that belief a label that belongs to something else and doesn’t suit it. You’re not a “Quaker Wiccan.” You are a person who is follows both pagan and loosely-based Quaker philosophies. That’s all.
BloodyKittens:
What I’m saying is religion is personal and if that’s how a person feels they can belong to more than one religion.It may not work for you but you can’t say that it can’t be that way for someone else.
AmarisGrey:
Religion isn’t personal; belief is. The difference is that belief has no rules or limitations, but religion does. And, yes I can say that it can’t be, because thats what the rules of the religion are. No one can change the rules of a religion to suit their own desires without turning it into something else. If that were true, Catholicism would be the only branch of Christianity, but it’s not. I will say it again: You cannot say you are Wiccan if you are an atheist. That’s not just according to me, be clear on that. That’s according to the law of Wicca. You also can’t belong to a monotheistic religion if you believe in more than one god. That’s not going to change.
ShadowBlade:
the downside is the stricter and more numerous the rules the harder it is for anyone in it to follow all the rules without breaking one of them, however picking and choosing the rules you follow does not change the religion that is giving the rules, you can’t try and take one set of rules and mix them with another religions set and say your both it just does not work, at most you can be one religion with a small influence of another, but in many cases it just makes you bad at being a part of your chosen religion.
AmarisGrey:
Well, that’s the thing, too: Wicca doesn’t have strict rules. Just Honor the Goddess and God and harm none. You don’t have observe the holy days or follow any of the traditions. You just have to believe in a Mother Goddess and a Father God. It’s not Wicca that restricts the usage of other beliefs, it the other beliefs themselves that are the limitations. Christianity, Judaism, and Muslims all believe in scriptures that say there is only one God. Taoists, Confucionists, and Buddhists are atheists, and do not believe in any gods. Hindus have thousands upon thousands of deities, but their karmetic principles clash with the three-fold law and the rule of “Harm None”, and, more often than not, most Hindus are against the practice of magic. Religions put up barriers like this for that reason, because they do not want people to intersect religions.
Belief and religion are not the same thing. You can believe whatever you want, but you can’t put it under the same roof as religion.
ShadowBlade:
exactly that was the point I was going for I know that Wicca has only two rules and that all other religions have rules which prevent them from mixing with any other religion, a persons beliefs can be what they want but that it is not the same as religion, but mixing certain beliefs that are strongly related to certain religions, i.e. magic, may not mix well with religions such as Christianity or Catholicism which quite often make their views on magic or anything related to witchcraft rather clear
AmarisGrey:
Exactly.